Author Topic: Way Huge pcb...  (Read 59314 times)

Mr.Huge

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2004, 09:56:44 PM »
Sorry to rant…
Thanks for being respectful.
Cheers,
-Mr. Huge

PS. Idlefaction, POD belongs to Line 6, Inc. Not me.
BEN:   Mos Eisley Spaceport. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

LUKE:   But I was going into Toshi Station to pick up some power converters...

VADER:   I find your lack of faith disturbing.

csj

  • Guest
Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2004, 12:56:50 AM »
self censored.

bobbletrox

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2004, 01:44:34 AM »
How do you figure, csj?  Mr.Huge said he doesn't have a problem with the parts list being posted, and you could come up with your own PCB artwork using the schematic Joep posted too.  I just need a read up on copyright law!  I didn't mean to ruin the thread  :oops:

bwanasonic

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2004, 02:22:15 AM »
I think it was pretty clear where this thread was going once the *mystery* was solved. I think "Mr. Huge" just wanted to remind everyone not to get carried away. I appreciate the fact that he encourages the spirit of *figure it out* , but is understandably not too keen on distribution of replicas. I was a bit suprised he played along after the initial scan of the trace side of the board was posted.

Kerry M

smoguzbenjamin

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2004, 09:22:58 AM »
I think it's only fair to say that this post was 'for educational purposes only' ;)
I don't like Holland. Nobody has the transistors I want.

Aharon

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2004, 11:16:30 AM »
Quote from: Mr.Huge
Aloha All,
Like I’ve said before… I have no problem if you reverse engineer and create YOUR OWN schematic and PCB… But…
Please cease and desist the distribution of Way Huge Electronics copyrighted material.
Copyright laws protect the PCB layout that has been posted (didn’t you see the “C”?). Please remove the Swollen Pickle PCB layout (trace side) from the site post haste.
Thank you.
RG you can post a parts list but please … (everyone)… refrain from using my trademarked material and copyrighted material without any disclaimer that say it does not belong to you. Posting copies of a PCB layout (that is protected) without written consent is illegal.
You guys need to be more careful.  
-Mr. Huge


I guess this is a heck of a lot more than you would get out of ZVex.This is CLASS.
Aharon
Aharon

mattv

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2004, 11:34:27 AM »
Quote from: Aharon

I guess this is a heck of a lot more than you would get out of ZVex.This is CLASS.
Aharon


Not really a fair comparison.

Aharon

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2004, 11:44:17 AM »
Quote from: mattv
Quote from: Aharon

I guess this is a heck of a lot more than you would get out of ZVex.This is CLASS.
Aharon


Not really a fair comparison.



Probably not....for the reasons I gave above,but I'd be interested in your take of why not.
Aharon
Aharon

Ed G.

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2004, 11:45:36 AM »
[quote="AharonI guess this is a heck of a lot more than you would get out of ZVex.This is CLASS.
Aharon[/quote]

That's really uncalled for.

mattv

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2004, 12:01:03 PM »
Quote from: Aharon

Probably not....for the reasons I gave above,but I'd be interested in your take of why not.
Aharon


AFAIK, Z's pedals are still in production. That makes a big difference to me. If you don't see it, oh well. The issue isn't decided by you or me.

I'm happy for Way Huge and Zvex both.

Fret Wire

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2004, 12:18:29 PM »
Mr. Huge showed a lot of class and diplomacy in this thread. Being that his PCB is copyright protected, he was under no obligation to be reasonable or polite about it. Yet he handled, and participated in the thread, and made it an educational class, until it reached a point. Then he pointed out the legalities of posting his property. The forum respected that, and Mr. Huge will still probably share his expertise with us from time to time.  

In another forum, if he had been adversarial, his property could have been pasted all over cyberspace. On some forums, they don't show basic respect to each other, let alone an effects builder. This forum, no doubt, would have respected his wishes regardless of his tone. This reflects well on Aron, and everyone on this forum.

Two class acts together made this one interesting thread. Thanks Mr. Huge!
Fret Wire
(Keyser Soze)

MR COFFEE

Ah, ... could we get back to circuitry, folks?
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2004, 01:01:36 PM »
Dear Compadres,

I respect everybody and you all make good points about personalities, legalities, realities of reverse-engineered products, etc., etc.

But could we get back to what makes this particular Big Muff Pi clone/variation different besides it uses a quad transistor array? (Which I suspect was to save on assembly cost, i.e., - insert 1 component instead of 4, no lead forming required.) Right, Mr. H?  :wink:

Like, for instance...

It appears that Mr. Huge may have modded the tone control values, although the unit may be a pure clone of an EH unit Mr. Huge reverse-engineered (EH often changed component values according to what parts were readily available at the time of manufacture, and there are at least 5 distinct schematics I have seen).

Looks like this Way Huge unit uses a .047 uf cap in the bass end of the tone control network with a - help us out here, Jack - 33K - resistor, instead of the usual .01 uf and 39K used on most of the EH units I've seen.

And it looks like maybe a .01 to .22 uf monolythic ceramic bypass cap in the treble end with a 22K resistor, instead of the usual .004 uf and 39K used on most of the EH units I've seen. (Note the part outline was apparently for a physically larger film cap originally. Perhaps EH isn't the only manufacturer to make opportunistic changes based on what is available :shock: )

This shifts the tone control function - Dave Cigna's tone stack calculator shows the differences in the tone-shaping curves.

It'd be nice to know what the correct values are for the components instead of guessing, though. (Pretty please, Jack? Or Mr. Huge, if you remember? Hey, I don't remember a lot of detail from 1985!  :lol: )

Thanks to all for a stimulating discussion. I've never heard or seen a Way Huge anything, but sounds like some of you that have heard one thought they were something special. Let's see why :)
Bart

petemoore

Data Sheet?
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2004, 01:16:54 PM »
I got an NTE2321, T-NPN, Si, Quad, General purpose amp.
  It's an NTE cross for a MPQ3904.
  On a similar note, I'm planning to use this as the amplifying stages of a BMP. Yes I know they get dogged, I have a transistor version thats 'lackluster', and have tried OA BM's with little to no usable results.
  I'ts interesting that this is the first mention of these "multi Q chips" I've read about...
  So the questions...is there another chip with the same pinout and very similar data sheet I can look at?
  I'm having troubles...the NTE Data/Cross ref page wont come up, and the resolution on the NTE package is much less than readable...now I have a chip look like it says under pins 1-7 respectively:
  C B E* N* C L* B C
 aND PINS 1-8:
  CBFN*CE*BC
  *...intelligible characters
  To use a transistor in this package style would require just making connections as one would with a Bipolar transisor...just pick one of the quads EBC connections, and make them where say a 3904 or 5088 would  be made in a ckt?
  The only Hfe marks say 100 min. , anyone familiar enough with this particular chip to say if it would work alike in a 2N5088 or 2N5089 substitution?
Convention creates following, following creates convention.

R.G.

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2004, 02:28:01 PM »
The use of a transistor array in a BMP circuit confers no particular advantage or disadvantage that I can see.

1) The transistors are not necessarily matched in arrays. Some maker guarantee matching, some don't.
2) Matching is not a useful parameter in the BMP circuit. The two distortion stages are "matched" by the input resistors and feedback elements, and the distortion diodes wipe out any particular effects the transistors might have by disallowing banging into the power supplies.
3) Insertion labor costs are not going to make or break a device like this, especially in the under-one-million production levels.

Near as I can tell, the use of an array might make for lower hand labor and fewer mistakes, as the array works every possible way you can insert it into the board, even including top and bottom, so there might be some advantage there, but it's not particularly cost of parts, especially where 2N3904's are as cheap as they are and MPQxxxx's are as unusual as they are.

I believe that the difference is in layout only. You could technically use that same layout and simply insert EBC transistors like the 2N3904, 2N4401, 2N4124, 2N5210, 2N5088, BC549, etc in the right three pins of the IC footprint.

I can't speak to the motivations for actually picking the array; it may have been because there was a large, cheap lot of MPQ's available, or simply because they're not a common chip and that would confuse a beginner tracer for a few minutes.
R.G.

Quick IQ Test: If anyone in a governmental position suspected that YOU had top-secret information on YOUR computer, how many minutes would you remain outside a jail cell?

petemoore

Anyway...
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2004, 02:53:22 PM »
Sitting on this silly NTE IC with no legible pinout info or datasheet...
  If the MPQ3904 is the work alike with same pinout...who makes that?
  maybe I could get some usable data from another source for the NTE chip...
Convention creates following, following creates convention.

bwanasonic

Re: Ah, ... could we get back to circuitry, folks?
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2004, 03:40:12 PM »
Quote from: MR COFFEE

Looks like this Way Huge unit uses a .047 uf cap in the bass end of the tone control network


Just fooling with these values in the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator, and it seems like being able to switch between 10n and 47n would be a useful *mid-notch* mod (maybe a push-pull pot). This cap may even be the single most defining difference between the BMP and the Pickle soundwise. More so than the *mystery chip*?

Kerry M

petemoore

The Mystery is the pinout...
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2004, 04:29:36 PM »
I can get no pinout information from NTE guy, NTE website, nor the NTE Book [I could find no diagram #247], The markings on the NTE package are illegible...Nte's not doing very for me well today...
  I can/t figure aout a cross ref...MPQ3904...anyone know who makes it?
  Any other cross reference data with pinout like an NTE2321 would be very helpful at this stage..
Convention creates following, following creates convention.

cd

Re: The Mystery is the pinout...
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2004, 04:37:05 PM »
Quote from: petemoore
I can get no pinout information from NTE guy, NTE website, nor the NTE Book [I could find no diagram #247], The markings on the NTE package are illegible...Nte's not doing very for me well today...
  I can/t figure aout a cross ref...MPQ3904...anyone know who makes it?
  Any other cross reference data with pinout like an NTE2321 would be very helpful at this stage..


What are you talking about, the pinout is right here:

http://www.nteinc.com/specs/2300to2399/NTE2321.html

There should be a notch or a dot on the chip so you can orient it properly.

idlefaction

Way Huge pcb...
« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2004, 05:37:38 PM »
i usually find google does a way better job of letting me find data sheets than manufacturers websites.  i generally just go

google.com

NTE2321 data sheet
Darren
NZ

petemoore

Thanks Darren
« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2004, 06:26:37 PM »
I'll try google like that next time first...
  cd, thanks it's quite clear now that I've accessed it [don't know why nont of the other methods didn't work...]
  4 and 11 are NC, with EBC on all the other pins working from the middle out with the emitters toward the middle...pretty simple...
  I think I may just go ahead with a BM build using the Quad Chip, unless there are other issues like Hfe...this one on the package says minimum 100...I guess thats sufficient for the resistors in the BM circuit to set the gain...[?]
  Then if this chip has a common pinout to other Quad Q chips, with different data, I should be able to do Q swaps...four at a time !!!!
Convention creates following, following creates convention.